“The Hebraic-roots movements that promise restoration through Torah observance while sometimes substituting their own interpretive grids for the actual text.”
So true!
I began this walk in the late ‘90s, which became more earnest around 2010.
I’ve learned as much about what it isn’t as well as what it is. Same thing happened when I was actively involved in ministry according to the SBC.
I could write a book about the blessings and curses of both.
~~~~~~~
12 The words of wise men are like goads, and masters of these collections are like well-driven nails; they are given by one Shepherd. 12 But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body. 13 ¶ The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. 14 For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.
~ Ecclesiastes 12:132-14
~~~~~~~
I think in both the institutionalized church and Hebraic Roots the issue is the ‘How? question that gets misinterpreted in so many ways.
The answers to how we:
- worship God
- fear God & keep the commandments
- walk with God
- follow Jesus
…Are all answered in the Bible, if one reads the whole text, rather than cherry-picking verses here and there.
I really liked this....I personally believe that all institutionalised religion is dangerous. We should quite simply be followers of Jesus Christ, read the bible as the true Word of God and do not trust any religion that tries to act as mediator between you and Christ. Jesus warned us that many false Christs would come and they are certainly in abundance in these end times. We must remember the bible teaches us that friendship with the world is emnity to God. We must therefore put all our trust and faith in God and not in men and their traditions. God bless Sergio.
My first training on how to do inductive Bible study was 2 Peter.
Chapter 2 warns against false teachers/prophets. The trainer said, “False teachers use our words, but not our dictionary.”
So much more could be said, but Peter’s final admonition still stands:
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
This is great. There is so much history and ways of life in the Bible that if we understood better it brings greater meaning to the text. Thanks for pointing this out I have read this chapter many times and that one went over my head.
Sergio thank you this is a sobering in depth study of Proverbs 7. It is amazing to me the instruction within the instruction that Gods Word gives. There is so much to glean. Especially diving into the Hebrew. Im seriously using the study tool every day. I relate to everything you have said from the inside.
I have seen Him working inside institutional churches, because He is where anyone has turned back to Him and He graciously uses it all and meets us right where we're at.
Sadly it also seems people have an interest, or even true teshuvah moments and then go into the institutionalised church and are shaped by wrong doctrine or form that doesn't truly reflect the text or the heart of the Father.
Ive experienced on each end of the spectrum.... charismatic churches desperately seeking (and even exaggerating) the signs - tongues as proof of salvation, "slain in the spirit" miracles of healing (don't hear what I'm not saying! I believe in healing and miracles today). It all gives the illusion of an active church where the Spirit is moving. In our flesh we are prone to sensationalism. We desire to fit in. We desire to be loved. One after the other we act out the "miracles of salvation" while the heart has never been changed.
Within my first few months in a church setting I was told I was gifted to be a worship leader that I was called to ministry and there was a real push to immediately use 'my gifts'. But I was only just reading and learning about obedience and the cross. I was only just getting into the rhythm of prayer. My delay and discernment to not walk straight into ministry was seen as peculiar. Shame is induced in charismatic events where I didn't fall back, or when hands laid on me to give the gift of tongues, there were great cheers when I tried it and started babbling. But after a second or two when I stopped babbling and said… no I don't think so… hands stopped touching, smiles turned into frowns and acceptance turned into rejection. Performance rewarded. Honesty punished.
In my reformed experience I was discipled by people who heard my testimony, questioned it, taught me it didn't sound right that I needed to have a "hear the gospel moment and accept it". In those early days I started to feel like I wasn't a true Christian yet. But I kept walking. Over time I started feeling tempted to say my testimony differently so it sounded more like the "right way". To fit in.
My actual experience was simple - the weight of sin, a turning to prayer, an answer, and a remaining. I didn't have the theology or words sorted day one or even year one or even now. But I was reading Gods Word, talking to Him, and learning to follow His instructions. Weirdly this never seemed enough for anyone. It was almost as if I should be much much further ahead in my walk even though I was just starting. Always expected to be somewhere I wasn't. My explanation about where I was at in my faith didn't fit the perfect reformed "hear and accept the gospel message." and in charismatic settings my desire to observe rather than participate was met with disappointment and even concern. My real life struggle and real time sanctification made people uncomfortable. Still does.
In New Zealand I have noticed that image based/reputation based performance Christianity, is rewarded - and when you are truly walking and abiding, confessing struggles, you are a black sheep. The system hates the person threatening the reputation and image of the "good church", but it's just a mask. Gossip and slander is rife because honesty is a threat to the system. Perception management in the community. Their harsh doctrine gives the illusion of obedience. A confession of sin = bad fruit, positions in church = good fruit. This framework allows them to feel and think that they are righteous/growing in Christ.
Some reformed churches preach fire and brimstone and repentance, but then when you are honest they shame you and judge you for sin. They preach about sanctification but in reality they treat true accountability and openness as disorder, instability, and poor testimony. If you share a struggle without tears they say you have to have been crying for true repentance. At every angle is someone telling you to perform. But Christ asks us to worship in Spirit and truth.
The honesty of one who has no image to maintain threatens the self perceived image of individuals in the church and the culture in the church built around that. The dangerous part is that their doctrine weaponises an honest testimony and tries to put shame and condemnation back on the one walking in spirit and truth. Over time the cracks show - that they don't practice what they preach, and the doctrine or understanding of text changes to suit certain people/certain behaviours. Simultaneously the reformed tradition speaks directly to the unchecked prideful flesh so all of us are susceptible to adapting, and unfortunately- I did.
Reformed churches tend towards restraint and correctness, managing appearance of doctrinal soundness, intellectual rigour and "proper order". They gate keep the ministry and positions, a confession of sin or struggle is met with disdain and there is no place for you to fit in because you have bad fruit. If you leave its because you are unstable and sinful. Charismatic image management tends toward abundance and gifting, managing appearance of spiritual power anointing and fruitfulness. The gifts start being performed instead of developed, the community shapes the behaviour of those who are inside the church, welcome and smiles for the ones who perform, disdain and outcast for the ones who don't. Both image management. Not a denomination problem, a human problem.
After all of this I have wondered if we are called OUT of it, or called IN to it? It's hard to find kindred spirits. I wonder and pray if my own pride or a critical spirit makes me someone who doesn't belong in the church. That maybe humility is the answer. But then where does 'humility' start moving into tolerance and then performance? Or is that my pride avoiding humility? Maybe I'm still bitter about my church experiences?
Guess I better go have a look at the Hebraic word study tool 😆 Guess I better go pray for the church 🙏🏻
You need to share this story. That's testimony right there.
My actual experience was simple - the weight of sin, a turning to prayer, an answer, and a remaining. I didn't have the theology or words sorted day one or even year one or even now. But I was reading Gods Word, talking to Him, and learning to follow His instructions. Weirdly this never seemed enough for anyone. It was almost as if I should be much much further ahead in my walk even though I was just starting. Always expected to be somewhere I wasn't. My explanation about where I was at in my faith didn't fit the perfect reformed "hear and accept the gospel message." and in charismatic settings my desire to observe rather than participate was met with disappointment and even concern.
I love it. As usual, I have no real idea how you arrived at your teaching. I can see it is true, and makes sense.
But I surely would have gone to: "Shall I therefore take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that he who joins himself to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two shall become one flesh.” 17 But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. 18 Shun immorality. Every other sin which a man commits is outside the body; but the immoral man sins against his own body. 19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body."
I would've taught about the wonders of the truth that we are one spirit with the Lord. Yet your exposition is a joy to read.
“The Hebraic-roots movements that promise restoration through Torah observance while sometimes substituting their own interpretive grids for the actual text.”
So true!
I began this walk in the late ‘90s, which became more earnest around 2010.
I’ve learned as much about what it isn’t as well as what it is. Same thing happened when I was actively involved in ministry according to the SBC.
I could write a book about the blessings and curses of both.
~~~~~~~
12 The words of wise men are like goads, and masters of these collections are like well-driven nails; they are given by one Shepherd. 12 But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body. 13 ¶ The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. 14 For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.
~ Ecclesiastes 12:132-14
~~~~~~~
I think in both the institutionalized church and Hebraic Roots the issue is the ‘How? question that gets misinterpreted in so many ways.
The answers to how we:
- worship God
- fear God & keep the commandments
- walk with God
- follow Jesus
…Are all answered in the Bible, if one reads the whole text, rather than cherry-picking verses here and there.
Hermeneutics is SO important.
I really liked this....I personally believe that all institutionalised religion is dangerous. We should quite simply be followers of Jesus Christ, read the bible as the true Word of God and do not trust any religion that tries to act as mediator between you and Christ. Jesus warned us that many false Christs would come and they are certainly in abundance in these end times. We must remember the bible teaches us that friendship with the world is emnity to God. We must therefore put all our trust and faith in God and not in men and their traditions. God bless Sergio.
Amen 👊👊
My first training on how to do inductive Bible study was 2 Peter.
Chapter 2 warns against false teachers/prophets. The trainer said, “False teachers use our words, but not our dictionary.”
So much more could be said, but Peter’s final admonition still stands:
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
~ 2 Peter 3:17-18
Amen!
This is great. There is so much history and ways of life in the Bible that if we understood better it brings greater meaning to the text. Thanks for pointing this out I have read this chapter many times and that one went over my head.
Thank you!
Sergio thank you this is a sobering in depth study of Proverbs 7. It is amazing to me the instruction within the instruction that Gods Word gives. There is so much to glean. Especially diving into the Hebrew. Im seriously using the study tool every day. I relate to everything you have said from the inside.
I have seen Him working inside institutional churches, because He is where anyone has turned back to Him and He graciously uses it all and meets us right where we're at.
Sadly it also seems people have an interest, or even true teshuvah moments and then go into the institutionalised church and are shaped by wrong doctrine or form that doesn't truly reflect the text or the heart of the Father.
Ive experienced on each end of the spectrum.... charismatic churches desperately seeking (and even exaggerating) the signs - tongues as proof of salvation, "slain in the spirit" miracles of healing (don't hear what I'm not saying! I believe in healing and miracles today). It all gives the illusion of an active church where the Spirit is moving. In our flesh we are prone to sensationalism. We desire to fit in. We desire to be loved. One after the other we act out the "miracles of salvation" while the heart has never been changed.
Within my first few months in a church setting I was told I was gifted to be a worship leader that I was called to ministry and there was a real push to immediately use 'my gifts'. But I was only just reading and learning about obedience and the cross. I was only just getting into the rhythm of prayer. My delay and discernment to not walk straight into ministry was seen as peculiar. Shame is induced in charismatic events where I didn't fall back, or when hands laid on me to give the gift of tongues, there were great cheers when I tried it and started babbling. But after a second or two when I stopped babbling and said… no I don't think so… hands stopped touching, smiles turned into frowns and acceptance turned into rejection. Performance rewarded. Honesty punished.
In my reformed experience I was discipled by people who heard my testimony, questioned it, taught me it didn't sound right that I needed to have a "hear the gospel moment and accept it". In those early days I started to feel like I wasn't a true Christian yet. But I kept walking. Over time I started feeling tempted to say my testimony differently so it sounded more like the "right way". To fit in.
My actual experience was simple - the weight of sin, a turning to prayer, an answer, and a remaining. I didn't have the theology or words sorted day one or even year one or even now. But I was reading Gods Word, talking to Him, and learning to follow His instructions. Weirdly this never seemed enough for anyone. It was almost as if I should be much much further ahead in my walk even though I was just starting. Always expected to be somewhere I wasn't. My explanation about where I was at in my faith didn't fit the perfect reformed "hear and accept the gospel message." and in charismatic settings my desire to observe rather than participate was met with disappointment and even concern. My real life struggle and real time sanctification made people uncomfortable. Still does.
In New Zealand I have noticed that image based/reputation based performance Christianity, is rewarded - and when you are truly walking and abiding, confessing struggles, you are a black sheep. The system hates the person threatening the reputation and image of the "good church", but it's just a mask. Gossip and slander is rife because honesty is a threat to the system. Perception management in the community. Their harsh doctrine gives the illusion of obedience. A confession of sin = bad fruit, positions in church = good fruit. This framework allows them to feel and think that they are righteous/growing in Christ.
Some reformed churches preach fire and brimstone and repentance, but then when you are honest they shame you and judge you for sin. They preach about sanctification but in reality they treat true accountability and openness as disorder, instability, and poor testimony. If you share a struggle without tears they say you have to have been crying for true repentance. At every angle is someone telling you to perform. But Christ asks us to worship in Spirit and truth.
The honesty of one who has no image to maintain threatens the self perceived image of individuals in the church and the culture in the church built around that. The dangerous part is that their doctrine weaponises an honest testimony and tries to put shame and condemnation back on the one walking in spirit and truth. Over time the cracks show - that they don't practice what they preach, and the doctrine or understanding of text changes to suit certain people/certain behaviours. Simultaneously the reformed tradition speaks directly to the unchecked prideful flesh so all of us are susceptible to adapting, and unfortunately- I did.
Reformed churches tend towards restraint and correctness, managing appearance of doctrinal soundness, intellectual rigour and "proper order". They gate keep the ministry and positions, a confession of sin or struggle is met with disdain and there is no place for you to fit in because you have bad fruit. If you leave its because you are unstable and sinful. Charismatic image management tends toward abundance and gifting, managing appearance of spiritual power anointing and fruitfulness. The gifts start being performed instead of developed, the community shapes the behaviour of those who are inside the church, welcome and smiles for the ones who perform, disdain and outcast for the ones who don't. Both image management. Not a denomination problem, a human problem.
After all of this I have wondered if we are called OUT of it, or called IN to it? It's hard to find kindred spirits. I wonder and pray if my own pride or a critical spirit makes me someone who doesn't belong in the church. That maybe humility is the answer. But then where does 'humility' start moving into tolerance and then performance? Or is that my pride avoiding humility? Maybe I'm still bitter about my church experiences?
Guess I better go have a look at the Hebraic word study tool 😆 Guess I better go pray for the church 🙏🏻
Thank you for your ministry. Praise the Lord.
You need to share this story. That's testimony right there.
My actual experience was simple - the weight of sin, a turning to prayer, an answer, and a remaining. I didn't have the theology or words sorted day one or even year one or even now. But I was reading Gods Word, talking to Him, and learning to follow His instructions. Weirdly this never seemed enough for anyone. It was almost as if I should be much much further ahead in my walk even though I was just starting. Always expected to be somewhere I wasn't. My explanation about where I was at in my faith didn't fit the perfect reformed "hear and accept the gospel message." and in charismatic settings my desire to observe rather than participate was met with disappointment and even concern.
Okay ill work on it! Do you think the whole thing is worth working with or just the paragraph you shared? Thanks
I think you’re experiencing your story and what you learned from it is worth a post, my friend!
I love it. As usual, I have no real idea how you arrived at your teaching. I can see it is true, and makes sense.
But I surely would have gone to: "Shall I therefore take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that he who joins himself to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two shall become one flesh.” 17 But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. 18 Shun immorality. Every other sin which a man commits is outside the body; but the immoral man sins against his own body. 19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body."
I would've taught about the wonders of the truth that we are one spirit with the Lord. Yet your exposition is a joy to read.
Thank you.