The one thing I've always gained from you is perspective. My years on this earth have been swallowed up by traditions that yield nothing and Institutions that want to own me or control me.
The past few years the Goid Lord has opened up a bit of a different world to me.
You've been part of this awakening along with many others.
If this isn't God's timing, I'm not sure I'll ever find it.
This may sound simplistic but… evil is a corruption of the good, not a thing God created as its own substance. It begins when creatures with free agency reject God’s order and choose self-rule.
On demons, yes, the Gospels treat them as real unclean spirits. Yeshua confronts them and casts them out. But the Bible does not give us a detailed origin story about where they came from. It keeps the focus on Messiah’s authority and people being restored.
On Isaiah and Ezekiel, those passages are addressed to arrogant kings, Babylon and Tyre. The language is elevated and cosmic because that is how prophets expose pride. I do not read them as a clear Satan origin story because the text itself does not frame them that way.
As for where Satan came from, Scripture never gives one tidy biography. It shows his role. Satan means adversary or accuser in Job and Zechariah, and in the New Testament he is presented as a real tempter and deceiver. Beyond that, I am trying to stay where the text is clear and not build a system where it is quiet.
great Q's! i, personally, do believe Ezekiel & Isaiah were speaking more to the spirit of satan rather than merely human kings. notice the verses that follow in each instance. i'm not posting all that here, as i just posted a somewhat lengthy challenge to just some of that which Sergio has shared that you should also be able to see.
something that came to mind when i read your post is the concept that "God created satan", or the question, "why did God create satan?" my Biblical understanding is that God created Heylel as an angelic being, and through individual free will Heylel chose to become satan when iniquity was found in him (which i understand to be coveting God's throne). i also refer to that as "original sin" because i understand it as having occurred prior to the Genesis "re-creation" account.
i understand all this is not necessarily held by mainstream Christianity, but it's what i understand thus far. Godbless...
Brother, I love you and am blessed by what you write. I am afraid that after the response to the last essay and this one you will think I only want to challenge you! But it seems to me, even though your points are well taken, satan's pride might make him operate as if he actually does have an alternate kingdom! And it seems to me the eph 6 verses hint at some kind of organization! I absolutely agree we fight at point of entry, the mind
Genesis 3 never calls the serpent “Satan.” It calls him the nachash—crafty. Scripture connects the “ancient serpent” language later (Rev 12:9), but Genesis itself doesn’t give us a Satan/Lucifer biography or a demon hierarchy.
What it does give us is the core mechanism of evil:
He doesn’t rule. He reframes.
He doesn’t overpower. He persuades.
“Did God really say…?”
“God is withholding…”
That’s why your question fits perfectly here: the Bible keeps showing evil influence as deception aimed at covenant trust—and Messiah answers that kind of influence with Torah, not superstition.
Yes, Revelation is referring back to the Genesis serpent, but here’s what it actually means.
Revelation isn’t adding a new demon backstory. It’s giving a character ID set: “ancient serpent… devil… Satan” (Rev 12:9). “Satan” isn’t originally a pronoun or proper name—it’s a role-word meaning adversary/accuser. “Devil” means slanderer. John is basically saying: the same deceiver from the beginning is the adversary who accuses and opposes God’s people.
you have presented very good stuff as usual! however…
consider Ephesians 6:
12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
so when we find prophets of God speaking out against human kings, consider the spiritual implications of who they are really speaking out against.
Isaiah 14:
4 that you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say: “How the oppressor has ceased, The golden city ceased!
while it may appear Isaiah is speaking out merely against the human king of Babylon, notice the revelation shortly thereafter…
12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer [Heylel], son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.
did the human king of Babylon ever fall from heaven for coveting the throne of the Most High?
of course not. therefore, perhaps Isaiah was speaking out against the spirit of satan to whom the king of Babylon was beholden.
Ezekiel 28:
12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
was Ezekiel merely speaking out against the human king of Tyre?
in this case, the revelation of this question occurs immediately afterwards…
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.
was the human king of Tyre in the Garden of Eden?
of course not. therefore, perhaps Ezekiel was speaking out against the spirit of satan to whom the king of Tyre was beholden.
regarding the rulership of this present world, consider an excerpt from my Heavenly Ambassadors study…
“The ancient Hebrews rejected God as their King while desiring a ‘human/carnal king’ of Israel. Consider that as God was replaced by a human/carnal king, their kingdom became transformed into a human/carnal kingdom. The transfer of kingship yields a transfer of ownership of that kingdom. Otherwise, is a kingdom not under the rulership of its own king? Of course, else he wouldn’t be called ‘king’ within that kingdom.”
was this human kingship/kingdom of God? if so, where does the Bible explicitly state that these present human kingdoms which Israel demanded are of God?
because it seems Jesus made blatantly clear that He is not presently the ruler of these worldly kingdoms…
John 12:
23 But Jesus answered them, saying, “The hour has come that the Son of Man should be glorified.”
...
31 “Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all [peoples] to Myself.”
John 14:
30 “I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.
John 16:
11 “of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
if satan is not the present ruler of this world & its kingdoms, then why does Jesus repeatedly say he is?
and when satan offers to Yahshua his authority over the world which had been delivered to him, why doesn’t He make clear that satan has no such authority? Jesus corrects satan making clear to only worship YHWH, yet He never corrects satan’s authority & rulership over this world & its kingdoms.
further consider, if these present kingdoms of this world are of God, then why would the Bible speak of a future time where God’s Kingdom would be set up when Yahshua returns in which He will rule from Jerusalem/Zion?
if we need more proof of who the present ruler of this world is, all we need to do is witness all that has been occurring and is occurring within it — such is why we are repeatedly warned to not be conformed to it.
regarding demonic hierarchy, while i’m sure there has been far too much un-Biblical speculation, please consider: if there is no hierarchy whatsoever among the demonic realm, why then would Jesus make any delineation about some demonic spirits being “more wicked” than others?
Matthew 12:
44 “Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order.
45 “Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation.”
if there is no hierarchy whatsoever, it seems all their wickedness would be identical to one another.
also consider that the book of Revelation is not merely apocalyptic imagery or a chronological timeline for the very last days, but also includes some of what has already taken place, as well as a glimpse of what will take place after YHWH’s millennial reign upon the Earth. after all, the seven churches in chapters 2 & 3 were real churches which existed at the time of the book’s writing.
regarding Revelation 12:
• was not the “male Child” (Yahshua) not already born at the time of this writing?
• was satan not already thrown to the Earth before the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?
- in Luke 10:18 Jesus said “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.”
• that satan fell from heaven before Adam & Eve were in the Garden of Eden, the account of war breaking out in heaven between Michael and his angels vs. the dragon (satan) and his angels, satan & his angels being case down to Earth as depicted in Revelation 12 must have occurred a long time ago.
- Revelation 12:8-9 explicitly states that the dragon/devil/satan was cast out of heaven to the Earth along with his angels — “his” angels, strongly suggesting satan has some kind of authority over them, which again is never really Biblically specified or even outlines, yet strongly suggests there being some kind of hierarchy among the demonic realm.
the more i study the book of Revelation, the more i view it as a kind of snapshot of the past, present, and future. seems that much of the Bible appears to be somewhat likewise.
sorry i couldn’t challenge all of your logic, as i do honestly agree with most of it. ;-)
and i couldn’t agree with you more about “unexamined assumptions” — it seems there is no shortage of these.
recently in a message i postulated on one form of a “legalistic cycle”:
“In my discernment the legalistic cycle often begins with assumptions without communication, which in turn leads to accusations without confirmation, and then concludes with false conclusions often resulting in condemnation.”
i’ve witnessed this occurrence not so much with regard to Biblical doctrines, but rather in situations between brethren — and most all of these began with assumptions without communication.
it is my goal to strive against personally making assumptions without communication among both brethren and neighbors.
Significant for me is your dialectic centring on the heart as thought, will, intention, moral direction pitted against emotion rather than embracing love. This is probably why your analysis fails to see that whereas the God who went into the desert was the God of the Torah, the God who came out was the God of Christ having engaged intimately with evil and been transformed by love as subsequently laid out in Matthew 5:38-48.
I don’t see any transformation in God. The God of the Torah and the God revealed in Christ are one and the same, unchanging, always just, always loving. What’s different is the fullness of revelation. In Matthew 5, Yeshua’s call to love doesn’t show a change in God,it reveals what was always there. So, my analysis stands: we aren’t pitting anything against love, it’s all grounded in the same God.
The one thing I've always gained from you is perspective. My years on this earth have been swallowed up by traditions that yield nothing and Institutions that want to own me or control me.
The past few years the Goid Lord has opened up a bit of a different world to me.
You've been part of this awakening along with many others.
If this isn't God's timing, I'm not sure I'll ever find it.
Thank you brother 💙
Like Susan, I do love you and am blessed by what you write...
I have a couple of questions...
Who/ What exactly are these demons that Jesus confronts and casts out? They seem to be an entity of some sort, where did they come from?
And it seems like you do not attribute isaiah and Ezekiel, an origin story of satan, (for lack of a better term)
is that not his beginning, if not, what does that story actually tell us?
And where do you think satan came from? If those stories aren't telling us that?
If you think it's only about the kings and not about an angelic creature?
This may sound simplistic but… evil is a corruption of the good, not a thing God created as its own substance. It begins when creatures with free agency reject God’s order and choose self-rule.
Thank you :) 🙏 hope this helps.
On demons, yes, the Gospels treat them as real unclean spirits. Yeshua confronts them and casts them out. But the Bible does not give us a detailed origin story about where they came from. It keeps the focus on Messiah’s authority and people being restored.
On Isaiah and Ezekiel, those passages are addressed to arrogant kings, Babylon and Tyre. The language is elevated and cosmic because that is how prophets expose pride. I do not read them as a clear Satan origin story because the text itself does not frame them that way.
As for where Satan came from, Scripture never gives one tidy biography. It shows his role. Satan means adversary or accuser in Job and Zechariah, and in the New Testament he is presented as a real tempter and deceiver. Beyond that, I am trying to stay where the text is clear and not build a system where it is quiet.
I appreciate that you are trying to stay where the text is clear. We need to do that.
So, that being said, where does evil originate then?
great Q's! i, personally, do believe Ezekiel & Isaiah were speaking more to the spirit of satan rather than merely human kings. notice the verses that follow in each instance. i'm not posting all that here, as i just posted a somewhat lengthy challenge to just some of that which Sergio has shared that you should also be able to see.
something that came to mind when i read your post is the concept that "God created satan", or the question, "why did God create satan?" my Biblical understanding is that God created Heylel as an angelic being, and through individual free will Heylel chose to become satan when iniquity was found in him (which i understand to be coveting God's throne). i also refer to that as "original sin" because i understand it as having occurred prior to the Genesis "re-creation" account.
i understand all this is not necessarily held by mainstream Christianity, but it's what i understand thus far. Godbless...
Brother, I love you and am blessed by what you write. I am afraid that after the response to the last essay and this one you will think I only want to challenge you! But it seems to me, even though your points are well taken, satan's pride might make him operate as if he actually does have an alternate kingdom! And it seems to me the eph 6 verses hint at some kind of organization! I absolutely agree we fight at point of entry, the mind
Hamon ahavah 💙
This is very thought-provoking. Can you give us a little more tie-in to the serpent in the garden?
Brian — great tie-in.
Genesis 3 never calls the serpent “Satan.” It calls him the nachash—crafty. Scripture connects the “ancient serpent” language later (Rev 12:9), but Genesis itself doesn’t give us a Satan/Lucifer biography or a demon hierarchy.
What it does give us is the core mechanism of evil:
He doesn’t rule. He reframes.
He doesn’t overpower. He persuades.
“Did God really say…?”
“God is withholding…”
That’s why your question fits perfectly here: the Bible keeps showing evil influence as deception aimed at covenant trust—and Messiah answers that kind of influence with Torah, not superstition.
Hope that helps!
So, the ancient serpent in Rev. 12:9 is alluding to that same nachash?
Yes, Revelation is referring back to the Genesis serpent, but here’s what it actually means.
Revelation isn’t adding a new demon backstory. It’s giving a character ID set: “ancient serpent… devil… Satan” (Rev 12:9). “Satan” isn’t originally a pronoun or proper name—it’s a role-word meaning adversary/accuser. “Devil” means slanderer. John is basically saying: the same deceiver from the beginning is the adversary who accuses and opposes God’s people.
Hope that helps B 😉.
Excellent! Thank you.
👊
you have presented very good stuff as usual! however…
consider Ephesians 6:
12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
so when we find prophets of God speaking out against human kings, consider the spiritual implications of who they are really speaking out against.
Isaiah 14:
4 that you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say: “How the oppressor has ceased, The golden city ceased!
while it may appear Isaiah is speaking out merely against the human king of Babylon, notice the revelation shortly thereafter…
12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer [Heylel], son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.
did the human king of Babylon ever fall from heaven for coveting the throne of the Most High?
of course not. therefore, perhaps Isaiah was speaking out against the spirit of satan to whom the king of Babylon was beholden.
Ezekiel 28:
12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
was Ezekiel merely speaking out against the human king of Tyre?
in this case, the revelation of this question occurs immediately afterwards…
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.
was the human king of Tyre in the Garden of Eden?
of course not. therefore, perhaps Ezekiel was speaking out against the spirit of satan to whom the king of Tyre was beholden.
regarding the rulership of this present world, consider an excerpt from my Heavenly Ambassadors study…
“The ancient Hebrews rejected God as their King while desiring a ‘human/carnal king’ of Israel. Consider that as God was replaced by a human/carnal king, their kingdom became transformed into a human/carnal kingdom. The transfer of kingship yields a transfer of ownership of that kingdom. Otherwise, is a kingdom not under the rulership of its own king? Of course, else he wouldn’t be called ‘king’ within that kingdom.”
was this human kingship/kingdom of God? if so, where does the Bible explicitly state that these present human kingdoms which Israel demanded are of God?
because it seems Jesus made blatantly clear that He is not presently the ruler of these worldly kingdoms…
John 12:
23 But Jesus answered them, saying, “The hour has come that the Son of Man should be glorified.”
...
31 “Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all [peoples] to Myself.”
John 14:
30 “I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.
John 16:
11 “of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
if satan is not the present ruler of this world & its kingdoms, then why does Jesus repeatedly say he is?
and when satan offers to Yahshua his authority over the world which had been delivered to him, why doesn’t He make clear that satan has no such authority? Jesus corrects satan making clear to only worship YHWH, yet He never corrects satan’s authority & rulership over this world & its kingdoms.
further consider, if these present kingdoms of this world are of God, then why would the Bible speak of a future time where God’s Kingdom would be set up when Yahshua returns in which He will rule from Jerusalem/Zion?
if we need more proof of who the present ruler of this world is, all we need to do is witness all that has been occurring and is occurring within it — such is why we are repeatedly warned to not be conformed to it.
regarding demonic hierarchy, while i’m sure there has been far too much un-Biblical speculation, please consider: if there is no hierarchy whatsoever among the demonic realm, why then would Jesus make any delineation about some demonic spirits being “more wicked” than others?
Matthew 12:
44 “Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order.
45 “Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation.”
if there is no hierarchy whatsoever, it seems all their wickedness would be identical to one another.
also consider that the book of Revelation is not merely apocalyptic imagery or a chronological timeline for the very last days, but also includes some of what has already taken place, as well as a glimpse of what will take place after YHWH’s millennial reign upon the Earth. after all, the seven churches in chapters 2 & 3 were real churches which existed at the time of the book’s writing.
regarding Revelation 12:
• was not the “male Child” (Yahshua) not already born at the time of this writing?
• was satan not already thrown to the Earth before the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?
- in Luke 10:18 Jesus said “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.”
• that satan fell from heaven before Adam & Eve were in the Garden of Eden, the account of war breaking out in heaven between Michael and his angels vs. the dragon (satan) and his angels, satan & his angels being case down to Earth as depicted in Revelation 12 must have occurred a long time ago.
- Revelation 12:8-9 explicitly states that the dragon/devil/satan was cast out of heaven to the Earth along with his angels — “his” angels, strongly suggesting satan has some kind of authority over them, which again is never really Biblically specified or even outlines, yet strongly suggests there being some kind of hierarchy among the demonic realm.
the more i study the book of Revelation, the more i view it as a kind of snapshot of the past, present, and future. seems that much of the Bible appears to be somewhat likewise.
sorry i couldn’t challenge all of your logic, as i do honestly agree with most of it. ;-)
and i couldn’t agree with you more about “unexamined assumptions” — it seems there is no shortage of these.
recently in a message i postulated on one form of a “legalistic cycle”:
“In my discernment the legalistic cycle often begins with assumptions without communication, which in turn leads to accusations without confirmation, and then concludes with false conclusions often resulting in condemnation.”
i’ve witnessed this occurrence not so much with regard to Biblical doctrines, but rather in situations between brethren — and most all of these began with assumptions without communication.
it is my goal to strive against personally making assumptions without communication among both brethren and neighbors.
Godbless… 🙏🏼😎❤️♾️
In 2011 A View from the Bunker did a podcast on this topic. It was interesting.
https://vftb.net/?p=4406
I'll have to check it out.
Really well done!
Significant for me is your dialectic centring on the heart as thought, will, intention, moral direction pitted against emotion rather than embracing love. This is probably why your analysis fails to see that whereas the God who went into the desert was the God of the Torah, the God who came out was the God of Christ having engaged intimately with evil and been transformed by love as subsequently laid out in Matthew 5:38-48.
I don’t see any transformation in God. The God of the Torah and the God revealed in Christ are one and the same, unchanging, always just, always loving. What’s different is the fullness of revelation. In Matthew 5, Yeshua’s call to love doesn’t show a change in God,it reveals what was always there. So, my analysis stands: we aren’t pitting anything against love, it’s all grounded in the same God.