“Covering”… that word has been so abused, it now makes me cringe. 😬 Love the challenges at the end. I think if we had more households doing those things, we’d see a real change in our faith practice and communities.
I think it took some time for them to get it, but I am pretty certain that today the Sons of Thunder would fully affirm what you wrote. Thank you for your writing and may God continue to bless you in it.
That is what we have been trying to do at our home, but most if not all of them belong to a very malnourished church with a pastor who is charismatic. He has a weird relationship with congregation which in many ways, people feel sorry for him and dont find courage to tell him the truth, thinking it might break his heart. Those who did, were either excused to come or they just lost heart to go there. It is a very sad situation. thanks for your input below.
“The idea that one man stands closer to God than the rest of the room…”
Is there a better example of that than watching people’s behavior change when they find out there’s a pastor in their midst? Even if they’re non-believers! Or how about the COVID days, when church members were so anxious to curry favor that the one family you KNEW always had food and toilet paper was the pastor’s.
I like how you point out the structure is to blame. Few churches are immune to it. Many pastors secretly relish it.
It was at ACC in the late 70’s and 80’s. Bunch of saved hippies from the Jesus Movement sent out from Abbott Loop CC (Alaska). It switched to business-first in mid 90’s, which caused me to question things. I was born in 1977, so I was around 13 when I saw things radically shift.
Thanks, Cathy. I’d say plurality is clearly biblical (shared elder/overseer shepherding, not a ladder). “Five-fold” can fit if it’s treated as functions that equip the saints, not offices with titles or rank. In other words: plurality is the shepherding/oversight structure; five-fold (at best) is an equipping ecosystem serving under that—never a chain of command.
When I saw it function well, the evangelists kept the pastors from “this is my sandbox” thinking. The Pastors reminded the evangelists that the sheep needed rest too - going out every day to share gospel was wearing them out. The apostles kept the vision community oriented so all the resources weren’t kept in the sandbox. They also drummed a beat of developing people’s gifts so they could be church outside the four walls and start new churches wherever it was needed. The prophets kept the rest accountable for holiness and listening for the words of God, calling the people to repentance and holiness, while also expressing the heart of God in the services. (Multiple people operated in multiple roles, btw.) The teacher kept the prophets accountable to scripture for the interpretation of what they saw/heard and the pastors accountable to scriptures so that when fads blew in (and they did), the people were told “that’s not scripture.” They also trained in discipleship, which the evangelists needed because they were always bringing in newbies. Pastors also trained in discipleship, and were more people-focused in their approach (tailoring things).
Agreed with many of your points, but how do you go about bringing people from churches that are truly malnourished for years? The minds have been formed to a system... Such teaching (which I truly believe is the only solution to modern-day church system, requires much more than just introducing people to "True Shared Community". Do you have an example of one that has being formed and being operational? I knew of a few out of states but nothing in my state/city.
Agreed. People aren’t just hungry they’ve been trained by the system. So it’s not about “starting a home group,” it’s retraining believers back into shared life: table, Scripture, prayer, mutual discipleship, needs being met. Last night we met at the youngest couple’s place newly married, barely any furniture and it was perfect. We ate, we talked, we laughed, and it felt alive. That’s what we’ve been missing.
“Covering”… that word has been so abused, it now makes me cringe. 😬 Love the challenges at the end. I think if we had more households doing those things, we’d see a real change in our faith practice and communities.
I think it took some time for them to get it, but I am pretty certain that today the Sons of Thunder would fully affirm what you wrote. Thank you for your writing and may God continue to bless you in it.
I do believe Paul says be good Berean's and search the Scriptures (that is the Tanakh, renewed covenant didn't exist then)
That is what we have been trying to do at our home, but most if not all of them belong to a very malnourished church with a pastor who is charismatic. He has a weird relationship with congregation which in many ways, people feel sorry for him and dont find courage to tell him the truth, thinking it might break his heart. Those who did, were either excused to come or they just lost heart to go there. It is a very sad situation. thanks for your input below.
“The idea that one man stands closer to God than the rest of the room…”
Is there a better example of that than watching people’s behavior change when they find out there’s a pastor in their midst? Even if they’re non-believers! Or how about the COVID days, when church members were so anxious to curry favor that the one family you KNEW always had food and toilet paper was the pastor’s.
I like how you point out the structure is to blame. Few churches are immune to it. Many pastors secretly relish it.
Amen
This unpacking hit me right when I needed it. God is good! Your writing is always simultaneously edifying and convicting. What a blessing!
Very good! Would you consider “plurality” to be Five-Fold? (Not the current title-heavy definition but as a working model in the early church.)
Where was that at Cathy?
It was at ACC in the late 70’s and 80’s. Bunch of saved hippies from the Jesus Movement sent out from Abbott Loop CC (Alaska). It switched to business-first in mid 90’s, which caused me to question things. I was born in 1977, so I was around 13 when I saw things radically shift.
Thanks, Cathy. I’d say plurality is clearly biblical (shared elder/overseer shepherding, not a ladder). “Five-fold” can fit if it’s treated as functions that equip the saints, not offices with titles or rank. In other words: plurality is the shepherding/oversight structure; five-fold (at best) is an equipping ecosystem serving under that—never a chain of command.
When I saw it function well, the evangelists kept the pastors from “this is my sandbox” thinking. The Pastors reminded the evangelists that the sheep needed rest too - going out every day to share gospel was wearing them out. The apostles kept the vision community oriented so all the resources weren’t kept in the sandbox. They also drummed a beat of developing people’s gifts so they could be church outside the four walls and start new churches wherever it was needed. The prophets kept the rest accountable for holiness and listening for the words of God, calling the people to repentance and holiness, while also expressing the heart of God in the services. (Multiple people operated in multiple roles, btw.) The teacher kept the prophets accountable to scripture for the interpretation of what they saw/heard and the pastors accountable to scriptures so that when fads blew in (and they did), the people were told “that’s not scripture.” They also trained in discipleship, which the evangelists needed because they were always bringing in newbies. Pastors also trained in discipleship, and were more people-focused in their approach (tailoring things).
Agreed with many of your points, but how do you go about bringing people from churches that are truly malnourished for years? The minds have been formed to a system... Such teaching (which I truly believe is the only solution to modern-day church system, requires much more than just introducing people to "True Shared Community". Do you have an example of one that has being formed and being operational? I knew of a few out of states but nothing in my state/city.
Agreed. People aren’t just hungry they’ve been trained by the system. So it’s not about “starting a home group,” it’s retraining believers back into shared life: table, Scripture, prayer, mutual discipleship, needs being met. Last night we met at the youngest couple’s place newly married, barely any furniture and it was perfect. We ate, we talked, we laughed, and it felt alive. That’s what we’ve been missing.