Sergio, this is a tough one to digest. I have always been the "yea but" guy in most theological discussions and can usually argue or find the points on both sides of an argument.
Like you, I try to stay away from theological labels or movements. I can see Calvin and Arminius in the scriptures. I also have decided at least for myself that there are many mysteries that God does not intend for us to unravel in this life or at least in the flesh.
As a musician and worship leader, I would be hard pressed to find any song writers I would know for sure or deem as "holy men". I have personally known some recognizable names and none of them without their "feet of clay". Even the Psalmist David wasn't a very consistent guy. Hot and cold I would say.
Then there was Mozart, Bach, and others with their Requiems. Handels Messiah. Most of those guys were not "living the Christian life" when they wrote their masterpieces.
In these modern times a good song writer is deemed a "rock star" while writing emotional drivel passed as "feeling the Holy Spirit". So...as a worship leader today, where do I draw the line on whose music I will sing? Its pretty safe to sing "Praise you Jesus" songs, but what if the writer is a secularist or of questionable character? Does that make what they wrote less meaningful to me the believer? Should we determine the theological background of every writer and make sure they line up with MY theology? I would admit there are some well known hymns of old that I am not comfortable singing...as well as some modern ones I see as totally errant or void of solid Christology.
In summary, I think your points are valid though I have not pursued the historical detail you have on Amazing Grace. I am not ready to throw out the song personally just because of Newtons human frailty of those times. I am just thinking that we would have to throw out more than half of all books and Christian hymns if the qualification was that a righteous person wrote them...nah maybe 99%. If I consider the realities of grace and my own up and down path of 7 decades, I know that God has used songs I wrote in the 70s to bless people even though I left the faith for a few decades. His grace was sufficient to bring me back around and it is only because of grace, not the law, that I returned. Even while I was yet (and am yet) a sinner, Christ died for me. He had and has a plan for me...and everyone else. Whether it was my choice or His calling that brought me back around, I will take either one...or both.
AMEN! as one P&W song leader to another, i fully agree with everything you have said here & thank you “Help My Unbelief Ministries” for your thoughtful and respectful comment here!
when i was continuing to struggle with my own sins of the flesh, i also wrote some beautiful spiritual songs. are those all rubbish because i wrote them when i was sinning more than i am now?
when i read/sing the lyrics of Amazing Grace, i put myself in place of the person who wrote it. i don’t really think of the author of the song and what all they supposedly went through — if any of it, or any other investigation presumes to reveal, is actually true.
i think of my own struggles in sin and how the grace (favor) of God toward me while still a sinner exemplifies His love for me. God knows my potential in spirit, while i continue to fail in my flesh.
who really knows what occurred between the author of the song and His Creator in the remaining years of his life. i pray the song he may have written while still steeped in sin became one of the major catalysts in his possible conversion later in life.
yet, shall i consider dispensing with playing it at church? if so, then i might consider dispensing with playing any song at church, or otherwise, knowing that only sinners have written them.
regardless, the lyrics of Amazing Grace can apparently mean something negative to some, while encouraging for others. i honestly don’t have a personal issue with them.
however, consider contrasting its lyrics with those of Battle Hymn of the Republic, which is also routinely sung during church services and considered to be a very “Godly hymn”. after doing a little bit of research, i decided long ago to never, ever play/sing that song again.
perhaps someone here might have a go with its history and its lyrics… but Laurene M. Vance covered this fairly well in 2006. in like manner as “Weird Al”, Mark Twain had a satirical go with it in his “updated” 1901 parody from the perspective of an American industrialist.
i include some of this in my study entitled “Civil Road to Tyranny” article that i put together in 2017. the impetus for the paper was born out of a simple question by one of our elders’ wives, “Tell me again why you won’t play Battle Hymn of the Republic in church anymore?”
One thing I would add, and I think my contention in writing it wasn't so much about his heart long term—because eventually the Lord got a hold of him—but about the way it was being presented to congregations.
Coupled with the ideology that Calvinism really gets a "get-out-of-jail-free" card without any responsibility, those were the two points I maybe should have clarified more in the article.
You have a man who wrote a song that's got some depth to it; however, based on Calvinist theology, he is singing one day and raping the next, all without remorse, at least from what we know in his logs. It continued for a very long time.
So, after I get the thoughts out of my head, maybe the article is more about just thinking critically about what we buy into and looking at things for what they are.
Calvinist theology never made any sense to me whatsoever. “God predestines people to either be with Him or go to so called ‘hell’?” totally unbiblical.
It's a very arrogant theology, and in my opinion, it's definitely not biblical. I put that theology in the same camp as many others, like Mormonism and The Watchtower.
i forgot to ask you if you had ever seen any of the things i found some years back about the Battle Hymn of the Republic? it was certainly news to me upon discovering it.
here's the link to my article. the info regarding the Battle Hymn is toward the very beginning of it, but you might enjoy the rest of this one, as it goes into some things about the history of our American education system and where it came from that you might find interesting.
the link is also at the end of my lengthy comment. 8-)
Wow. This - leaves me stunned. I have always loved this song - deeply. Idk how to feel about any of it or your essay. Sergio, this one will leave a scar. I don't dispute your scholarship, nor the truth you lay bare. I am just literally off balance with it. And then I have to ask - why have I never heard this? Ever. From any corner. And now I ask myself- is this another place I will need to research for myself? Which leads me to- Does anything I ever learned actually hold the meaning I was given? 🤨 I will have to sit with this for a very long while. The job of reconciliation will be lengthy. Sad but grateful for truth. 🙏🏻 Awakening like a butterfly- struggle- is good.
Definitely eye opening and definitely doing my own digging. Just can't possibly do it all. Therefore, I am immensely grateful for you and those who have done the research and generously share their findings, data and lexicon! Which is breathing life into this old girl! 🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻🙏🏻💙
Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
~ Colossians 3:16
A few years ago I tried to ‘verse map’ Colossians 3:16 after a friend shared it with me after her morning devotions. I wonder how many Christians realize that the Psalms were ‘sung’ by the Levitical singers during worship..That would be Paul’s frame of reference! There are 150 Psalms assigned to different days and moedim . . . Not to mention the Song of Moses, the Song of Deborah, the Servant songs in Isaiah as well as other hymns mentioned in the Tanakh. When I sang in choir I read a book, “Songs of Revelation”, about the song of the saints, the song of Moses (again!), the song of the Lamb, and a new song. I also wrote a paper, “Sing to the Lord” after a study of the Levitical choir.
If we enter His gates with thanksgiving and courts with praise, we will sing TO to Him, NOT about us.
~~~~~~~
Ascribe to the LORD the glory due his name; worship the LORD in the splendor of his holiness. ~ Psalm 29:2
Worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness; tremble before him all the earth ~ Psalm 96:9
I'm not denying other arguments present within this article (the historical context and the institutional misdirection of scripture of which I do not know enough) but I feel the point you're making and which requires much deep and clear self-examination before scripture by all of us is summarised in the following excerpts:
"A man can be genuinely devout and genuinely monstrous at once, with nothing in the framework alerting him.
....
The problem was never that he failed to feel. He felt deeply. He felt about himself.
....
Sincerity was never missing. He had it. So did the men who bought his cargo. I said I hold no card. That is not neutrality. It is the refusal to let any man stand between me and the text."
The reality of our faith in Christ's salvation, a salvation we chose and choose to persist in, is how we recognise and feel (sing in sincere worship) that God's Grace has reached us. This is no small thing but remains a feeling, an expression, a trigger very different from the enormous amount of possible and necessary deeds salvation opens up for us in both our personal and communal lifes. These require precise and close (Berean) attention to what the text says so that our steps be conformant to the covenant we've entered in with HaShem thanks to Christ.
It is sad to see how the close examination of Christian accepted practices leads many of us to take sides according to personal or group allegiances instead of siding with the only side that really matters and that we have been blessed with in receiving scripture.
Digging deep only brings us to facing our realities before God. Though this is never easy because of the mistakes/sins we keep making/committing despite our resolve, one thing is clear, unexamined personal preferences lead us into temptation and that, many times, despite our familiarity with scripture. The closer we come to the text and its origins, the better chance we have in comprehending the magnitude of our separation from God in true humility and the higher the probability that we'll walk His Way.
Sergio, you just wrecked Sunday morning hymnal service. I’ve done fell out in this living room. You done made me click three times like Dorothy and cried “ there no place like home.”
I’m done. Can’t breathe. With your permission I’ve got to share with others the TRUTH!
I’m seeing in the last days we are being set free from the tradition of men, and erroneous teachings.
Lord, helps us! We sang this song at every funeral. I just dropped the mic and fainted 🎤
when i was continuing to struggle with my own sins of the flesh, i also wrote some beautiful spiritual songs. are those all rubbish because i wrote them when i was sinning more than i am now?
when i read/sing the lyrics of Amazing Grace, i put myself in place of the person who wrote it. i don’t really think of the author of the song and what all they supposedly went through — if any of it, or any other investigation presumes to reveal, is actually true.
i think of my own struggles in sin and how the grace (favor) of God toward me while still a sinner exemplifies His love for me. God knows my potential in spirit, while i continue to fail in my flesh.
who really knows what occurred between the author of the song and His Creator in the remaining years of his life. i pray the song he may have written while still steeped in sin became one of the major catalysts in his possible conversion later in life.
yet, shall i consider dispensing with playing it at church? if so, then i might consider dispensing with playing any song at church, or otherwise, knowing that only sinners have written them.
regardless, the lyrics of Amazing Grace can apparently mean something negative to some, while encouraging for others. i honestly don’t have a personal issue with them.
however, consider contrasting its lyrics with those of Battle Hymn of the Republic, which is also routinely sung during church services and considered to be a very “Godly hymn”. after doing a little bit of research, i decided long ago to never, ever play/sing that song again.
perhaps someone here might have a go with its history and its lyrics… but Laurene M. Vance covered this fairly well in 2006. in like manner as “Weird Al”, Mark Twain had a satirical go with it in his “updated” 1901 parody from the perspective of an American industrialist.
i include some of this in my study entitled “Civil Road to Tyranny” article that i put together in 2017. the impetus for the paper was born out of a simple question by one of our elders’ wives, “Tell me again why you won’t play Battle Hymn of the Republic in church anymore?”
Reading this brings me back to my childhood church, Fairview Presbyterian (PCA) near Fountain Inn, SC. The sanctuary is the fourth building, and it was built in 1858 (that date should tell you something.) The interior has a gallery (no longer usable) accessible only from outside. Why? Because that’s where the slaves sat. The far-right corner of the graveyard appears empty—but it isn’t. The person cutting the grass one day in 1947 decided the stones were in his way, so he threw them over the stone wall. The problem was those were grave markers—slave grave markers. So, the church put up a stone memorial “to all the slaves buried in unmarked graves.”
I sit in the sanctuary every time I visit and I ask myself, “How did these people read what James says about not holding the faith with partiality and not see how they were violating it?” But apparently, they didn’t. It didn’t seem to occur to them that it was wrong to keep slaves, to make them sit in a separate area, or to bury them in a separate part of the graveyard.
I qualify not only for membership in the Sons of Confederate Veterans, but in its upper echelon, the Military Order of the Stars and Bars (one of my ancestors was an officer in the 16th SC Regiment.) But I can’t do it. I don’t dishonor the memory of my ancestors, but I have to recognize that their suffering and hardships were in the service of a wrong thing. And above all else was the wrong of maintaining a system that the Word of God condemns.
Thank you sincerely for sharing that, I had a clear mental picture as I read it. How was travel from Indiana to Chicago the backway, and I stopped in a little tiny town with a historic church that had the graveyard next to it. I’ll see if I can find the pictures. That’s what I saw when I read what you shared.
Thanks Sergio Desoto, for your courage to post this article. While in seminary (didn't complete the studies for the Mdiv degree but studied there for about 1.5 years. I did take most of the Theological courses. Liberation Theology was a requirement that I took. It did not reference "Amazing Grace". I just may not remember it though. I will never be the same in terms of Biblical assumptions. And song assumptions as for as that goes. Your insights into presumptions of church history, and their realities revealed in present Christianity...
The Mordern Church, Protestant Church is anchored theologically in that song. This means to me that in so many ways I have accepted tradition, especially in the church without seeking, searching for the truth behind even the most familiar, like the songs we sing. My theology professor at a service preaching before he got started commented: "I thought the church had moved pass", grown beyound the lyrics of that song". The song the choir had just so emotionally song.
I wonder if we are post collabarators in evil unknowingly.
May the Lord continue to give you courage to Speak the Truth without fear
Some background context on what Newton wrote, and the inspiration for his words:
1 Chronicles 17:16–17 — JPS
16 Then David the king went in, and sat before the LORD; and he said: “Who am I, O LORD God, and what is my house, that Thou hast brought me thus far?
17 And this was yet a small thing in Thine eyes, O God; but Thou hast spoken of Thy servant’s house for a great while to come, and hast regarded me according to the estate of a man of high degree, O LORD God.
The passage is David’s response to Nathan’s revelation that God intends to establish David’s house/dynasty. David is expressing astonishment at God’s grace toward him and his family.
This context is significant for understanding why Newton’s original title for Amazing Grace was “Faith’s Review and Expectation.” The hymn’s original biblical reference to 1 Chronicles 17:16–17 points directly to David reflecting on God’s unmerited favor and His promises concerning David’s house—not specifically to Newton’s experience as a slave-ship captain.
when truth hits and doesn't set right with some one's frame work feelings get hurt and people get offended. lol we have a "religion" with God and not a relationship with him in the world. preachers charging to hear the good news and selling you an ideology while at the same time missing the very message they preach! crazy times we live in! brick and mortar.
What Pamphlet finally came? You mention a pamphlet. Sergio,
it has been my understanding that John Newton wrote the body of the song after God convicted him that the slave trade was evil and he became an abolitionist. He turned away from it. Just because a captain holds religious services for the men on the ship does not mean that he was a believer himself at that time. If he abused women. He obviously was not yet following Christ. I was taught that he repented and tried to stop the trade. Nevertheless less, white traders were buying slaves from black traders.
If you don't actually have the dates in order, this could be a real slur.
Either way, those who sing this song sing it in faith for what it means to them in a contemporary sense. Why are you being the devil's advocate?
Laura, this article is just about the facts of that song, and it's definitely not in the order that you're recalling. The song was written many, many years before he changed his mind about slavery and stopped assaulting women on the ships…
I'm not being the devil's advocate.
I'm showing you the depth of that doctrine and how it affected a man who engaged in deep sin and thought he was predestined to be released.
Sergio, this is a tough one to digest. I have always been the "yea but" guy in most theological discussions and can usually argue or find the points on both sides of an argument.
Like you, I try to stay away from theological labels or movements. I can see Calvin and Arminius in the scriptures. I also have decided at least for myself that there are many mysteries that God does not intend for us to unravel in this life or at least in the flesh.
As a musician and worship leader, I would be hard pressed to find any song writers I would know for sure or deem as "holy men". I have personally known some recognizable names and none of them without their "feet of clay". Even the Psalmist David wasn't a very consistent guy. Hot and cold I would say.
Then there was Mozart, Bach, and others with their Requiems. Handels Messiah. Most of those guys were not "living the Christian life" when they wrote their masterpieces.
In these modern times a good song writer is deemed a "rock star" while writing emotional drivel passed as "feeling the Holy Spirit". So...as a worship leader today, where do I draw the line on whose music I will sing? Its pretty safe to sing "Praise you Jesus" songs, but what if the writer is a secularist or of questionable character? Does that make what they wrote less meaningful to me the believer? Should we determine the theological background of every writer and make sure they line up with MY theology? I would admit there are some well known hymns of old that I am not comfortable singing...as well as some modern ones I see as totally errant or void of solid Christology.
In summary, I think your points are valid though I have not pursued the historical detail you have on Amazing Grace. I am not ready to throw out the song personally just because of Newtons human frailty of those times. I am just thinking that we would have to throw out more than half of all books and Christian hymns if the qualification was that a righteous person wrote them...nah maybe 99%. If I consider the realities of grace and my own up and down path of 7 decades, I know that God has used songs I wrote in the 70s to bless people even though I left the faith for a few decades. His grace was sufficient to bring me back around and it is only because of grace, not the law, that I returned. Even while I was yet (and am yet) a sinner, Christ died for me. He had and has a plan for me...and everyone else. Whether it was my choice or His calling that brought me back around, I will take either one...or both.
AMEN! as one P&W song leader to another, i fully agree with everything you have said here & thank you “Help My Unbelief Ministries” for your thoughtful and respectful comment here!
when i was continuing to struggle with my own sins of the flesh, i also wrote some beautiful spiritual songs. are those all rubbish because i wrote them when i was sinning more than i am now?
when i read/sing the lyrics of Amazing Grace, i put myself in place of the person who wrote it. i don’t really think of the author of the song and what all they supposedly went through — if any of it, or any other investigation presumes to reveal, is actually true.
i think of my own struggles in sin and how the grace (favor) of God toward me while still a sinner exemplifies His love for me. God knows my potential in spirit, while i continue to fail in my flesh.
who really knows what occurred between the author of the song and His Creator in the remaining years of his life. i pray the song he may have written while still steeped in sin became one of the major catalysts in his possible conversion later in life.
yet, shall i consider dispensing with playing it at church? if so, then i might consider dispensing with playing any song at church, or otherwise, knowing that only sinners have written them.
regardless, the lyrics of Amazing Grace can apparently mean something negative to some, while encouraging for others. i honestly don’t have a personal issue with them.
however, consider contrasting its lyrics with those of Battle Hymn of the Republic, which is also routinely sung during church services and considered to be a very “Godly hymn”. after doing a little bit of research, i decided long ago to never, ever play/sing that song again.
perhaps someone here might have a go with its history and its lyrics… but Laurene M. Vance covered this fairly well in 2006. in like manner as “Weird Al”, Mark Twain had a satirical go with it in his “updated” 1901 parody from the perspective of an American industrialist.
i include some of this in my study entitled “Civil Road to Tyranny” article that i put together in 2017. the impetus for the paper was born out of a simple question by one of our elders’ wives, “Tell me again why you won’t play Battle Hymn of the Republic in church anymore?”
perhaps some here might enjoy this one…
Civil Road to Tyranny
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1O8XZobE4Q3cLHLe-yIBBIPio58N78uLs/view
You both have really great comments.
One thing I would add, and I think my contention in writing it wasn't so much about his heart long term—because eventually the Lord got a hold of him—but about the way it was being presented to congregations.
Coupled with the ideology that Calvinism really gets a "get-out-of-jail-free" card without any responsibility, those were the two points I maybe should have clarified more in the article.
You have a man who wrote a song that's got some depth to it; however, based on Calvinist theology, he is singing one day and raping the next, all without remorse, at least from what we know in his logs. It continued for a very long time.
So, after I get the thoughts out of my head, maybe the article is more about just thinking critically about what we buy into and looking at things for what they are.
🤔
Calvinist theology never made any sense to me whatsoever. “God predestines people to either be with Him or go to so called ‘hell’?” totally unbiblical.
Yeah, it's a head-scratcher for me, too.
It's a very arrogant theology, and in my opinion, it's definitely not biblical. I put that theology in the same camp as many others, like Mormonism and The Watchtower.
It devalues the cross.
i forgot to ask you if you had ever seen any of the things i found some years back about the Battle Hymn of the Republic? it was certainly news to me upon discovering it.
Will you share it again? I saw it, but I got about 20 million things going on. I'm going to look at that as well.
here's the link to my article. the info regarding the Battle Hymn is toward the very beginning of it, but you might enjoy the rest of this one, as it goes into some things about the history of our American education system and where it came from that you might find interesting.
the link is also at the end of my lengthy comment. 8-)
Civil Road to Tyranny
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1O8XZobE4Q3cLHLe-yIBBIPio58N78uLs/view
Yeah, the end times are coming, brother.
Wow. This - leaves me stunned. I have always loved this song - deeply. Idk how to feel about any of it or your essay. Sergio, this one will leave a scar. I don't dispute your scholarship, nor the truth you lay bare. I am just literally off balance with it. And then I have to ask - why have I never heard this? Ever. From any corner. And now I ask myself- is this another place I will need to research for myself? Which leads me to- Does anything I ever learned actually hold the meaning I was given? 🤨 I will have to sit with this for a very long while. The job of reconciliation will be lengthy. Sad but grateful for truth. 🙏🏻 Awakening like a butterfly- struggle- is good.
Always be Berean, Lisa! And this is one of those things that has been taught from the pulpit for a long time, but the truth is not fun to look at.
My prayer is that this is an eye-opener not to condemn preaching but for people to start digging on their own.
Everything that comes out of a preacher’s mouth needs to be scrutinized like a Berean. 👊🙏
Definitely eye opening and definitely doing my own digging. Just can't possibly do it all. Therefore, I am immensely grateful for you and those who have done the research and generously share their findings, data and lexicon! Which is breathing life into this old girl! 🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻🙏🏻💙
Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
~ Colossians 3:16
A few years ago I tried to ‘verse map’ Colossians 3:16 after a friend shared it with me after her morning devotions. I wonder how many Christians realize that the Psalms were ‘sung’ by the Levitical singers during worship..That would be Paul’s frame of reference! There are 150 Psalms assigned to different days and moedim . . . Not to mention the Song of Moses, the Song of Deborah, the Servant songs in Isaiah as well as other hymns mentioned in the Tanakh. When I sang in choir I read a book, “Songs of Revelation”, about the song of the saints, the song of Moses (again!), the song of the Lamb, and a new song. I also wrote a paper, “Sing to the Lord” after a study of the Levitical choir.
If we enter His gates with thanksgiving and courts with praise, we will sing TO to Him, NOT about us.
~~~~~~~
Ascribe to the LORD the glory due his name; worship the LORD in the splendor of his holiness. ~ Psalm 29:2
Worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness; tremble before him all the earth ~ Psalm 96:9
🙏 amen!
I'm not denying other arguments present within this article (the historical context and the institutional misdirection of scripture of which I do not know enough) but I feel the point you're making and which requires much deep and clear self-examination before scripture by all of us is summarised in the following excerpts:
"A man can be genuinely devout and genuinely monstrous at once, with nothing in the framework alerting him.
....
The problem was never that he failed to feel. He felt deeply. He felt about himself.
....
Sincerity was never missing. He had it. So did the men who bought his cargo. I said I hold no card. That is not neutrality. It is the refusal to let any man stand between me and the text."
The reality of our faith in Christ's salvation, a salvation we chose and choose to persist in, is how we recognise and feel (sing in sincere worship) that God's Grace has reached us. This is no small thing but remains a feeling, an expression, a trigger very different from the enormous amount of possible and necessary deeds salvation opens up for us in both our personal and communal lifes. These require precise and close (Berean) attention to what the text says so that our steps be conformant to the covenant we've entered in with HaShem thanks to Christ.
It is sad to see how the close examination of Christian accepted practices leads many of us to take sides according to personal or group allegiances instead of siding with the only side that really matters and that we have been blessed with in receiving scripture.
Digging deep only brings us to facing our realities before God. Though this is never easy because of the mistakes/sins we keep making/committing despite our resolve, one thing is clear, unexamined personal preferences lead us into temptation and that, many times, despite our familiarity with scripture. The closer we come to the text and its origins, the better chance we have in comprehending the magnitude of our separation from God in true humility and the higher the probability that we'll walk His Way.
Sergio, you just wrecked Sunday morning hymnal service. I’ve done fell out in this living room. You done made me click three times like Dorothy and cried “ there no place like home.”
I’m done. Can’t breathe. With your permission I’ve got to share with others the TRUTH!
I’m seeing in the last days we are being set free from the tradition of men, and erroneous teachings.
Lord, helps us! We sang this song at every funeral. I just dropped the mic and fainted 🎤
Share 💙
Yeah, we need to start waking up on what we’ve been fed from the altar, sister!
when i was continuing to struggle with my own sins of the flesh, i also wrote some beautiful spiritual songs. are those all rubbish because i wrote them when i was sinning more than i am now?
when i read/sing the lyrics of Amazing Grace, i put myself in place of the person who wrote it. i don’t really think of the author of the song and what all they supposedly went through — if any of it, or any other investigation presumes to reveal, is actually true.
i think of my own struggles in sin and how the grace (favor) of God toward me while still a sinner exemplifies His love for me. God knows my potential in spirit, while i continue to fail in my flesh.
who really knows what occurred between the author of the song and His Creator in the remaining years of his life. i pray the song he may have written while still steeped in sin became one of the major catalysts in his possible conversion later in life.
yet, shall i consider dispensing with playing it at church? if so, then i might consider dispensing with playing any song at church, or otherwise, knowing that only sinners have written them.
regardless, the lyrics of Amazing Grace can apparently mean something negative to some, while encouraging for others. i honestly don’t have a personal issue with them.
however, consider contrasting its lyrics with those of Battle Hymn of the Republic, which is also routinely sung during church services and considered to be a very “Godly hymn”. after doing a little bit of research, i decided long ago to never, ever play/sing that song again.
perhaps someone here might have a go with its history and its lyrics… but Laurene M. Vance covered this fairly well in 2006. in like manner as “Weird Al”, Mark Twain had a satirical go with it in his “updated” 1901 parody from the perspective of an American industrialist.
i include some of this in my study entitled “Civil Road to Tyranny” article that i put together in 2017. the impetus for the paper was born out of a simple question by one of our elders’ wives, “Tell me again why you won’t play Battle Hymn of the Republic in church anymore?”
perhaps some here might enjoy this one…
Civil Road to Tyranny
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1O8XZobE4Q3cLHLe-yIBBIPio58N78uLs/view
Food for thought...
Reading this brings me back to my childhood church, Fairview Presbyterian (PCA) near Fountain Inn, SC. The sanctuary is the fourth building, and it was built in 1858 (that date should tell you something.) The interior has a gallery (no longer usable) accessible only from outside. Why? Because that’s where the slaves sat. The far-right corner of the graveyard appears empty—but it isn’t. The person cutting the grass one day in 1947 decided the stones were in his way, so he threw them over the stone wall. The problem was those were grave markers—slave grave markers. So, the church put up a stone memorial “to all the slaves buried in unmarked graves.”
I sit in the sanctuary every time I visit and I ask myself, “How did these people read what James says about not holding the faith with partiality and not see how they were violating it?” But apparently, they didn’t. It didn’t seem to occur to them that it was wrong to keep slaves, to make them sit in a separate area, or to bury them in a separate part of the graveyard.
I qualify not only for membership in the Sons of Confederate Veterans, but in its upper echelon, the Military Order of the Stars and Bars (one of my ancestors was an officer in the 16th SC Regiment.) But I can’t do it. I don’t dishonor the memory of my ancestors, but I have to recognize that their suffering and hardships were in the service of a wrong thing. And above all else was the wrong of maintaining a system that the Word of God condemns.
Thank you sincerely for sharing that, I had a clear mental picture as I read it. How was travel from Indiana to Chicago the backway, and I stopped in a little tiny town with a historic church that had the graveyard next to it. I’ll see if I can find the pictures. That’s what I saw when I read what you shared.
Praying while preying with unrepentant shame whitewashed over with systematic theology and a soothing tune.
Yet be forewarned, God is not mocked.
Amen, amen, amen.
Thanks Sergio Desoto, for your courage to post this article. While in seminary (didn't complete the studies for the Mdiv degree but studied there for about 1.5 years. I did take most of the Theological courses. Liberation Theology was a requirement that I took. It did not reference "Amazing Grace". I just may not remember it though. I will never be the same in terms of Biblical assumptions. And song assumptions as for as that goes. Your insights into presumptions of church history, and their realities revealed in present Christianity...
The Mordern Church, Protestant Church is anchored theologically in that song. This means to me that in so many ways I have accepted tradition, especially in the church without seeking, searching for the truth behind even the most familiar, like the songs we sing. My theology professor at a service preaching before he got started commented: "I thought the church had moved pass", grown beyound the lyrics of that song". The song the choir had just so emotionally song.
I wonder if we are post collabarators in evil unknowingly.
May the Lord continue to give you courage to Speak the Truth without fear
Sergio Desoto!!
Thank you, brother 🙏
So while he prayed on deck, he preyed upon the women below…I can’t begin to describe what just hit my gut.
Having a granddaughter who was trafficked when she was 16, I wondered what type of men paid for her. Teachers, lawyers, pastors? I will never know.
In spite of what I am feeling toward all that, I am compelled to ask the Lord to show me anything in me that is not acceptable to You…
Thanks for exhorting us to be Berean.
Some background context on what Newton wrote, and the inspiration for his words:
1 Chronicles 17:16–17 — JPS
16 Then David the king went in, and sat before the LORD; and he said: “Who am I, O LORD God, and what is my house, that Thou hast brought me thus far?
17 And this was yet a small thing in Thine eyes, O God; but Thou hast spoken of Thy servant’s house for a great while to come, and hast regarded me according to the estate of a man of high degree, O LORD God.
The passage is David’s response to Nathan’s revelation that God intends to establish David’s house/dynasty. David is expressing astonishment at God’s grace toward him and his family.
This context is significant for understanding why Newton’s original title for Amazing Grace was “Faith’s Review and Expectation.” The hymn’s original biblical reference to 1 Chronicles 17:16–17 points directly to David reflecting on God’s unmerited favor and His promises concerning David’s house—not specifically to Newton’s experience as a slave-ship captain.
when truth hits and doesn't set right with some one's frame work feelings get hurt and people get offended. lol we have a "religion" with God and not a relationship with him in the world. preachers charging to hear the good news and selling you an ideology while at the same time missing the very message they preach! crazy times we live in! brick and mortar.
What Pamphlet finally came? You mention a pamphlet. Sergio,
it has been my understanding that John Newton wrote the body of the song after God convicted him that the slave trade was evil and he became an abolitionist. He turned away from it. Just because a captain holds religious services for the men on the ship does not mean that he was a believer himself at that time. If he abused women. He obviously was not yet following Christ. I was taught that he repented and tried to stop the trade. Nevertheless less, white traders were buying slaves from black traders.
If you don't actually have the dates in order, this could be a real slur.
Either way, those who sing this song sing it in faith for what it means to them in a contemporary sense. Why are you being the devil's advocate?
Laura, this article is just about the facts of that song, and it's definitely not in the order that you're recalling. The song was written many, many years before he changed his mind about slavery and stopped assaulting women on the ships…
I'm not being the devil's advocate.
I'm showing you the depth of that doctrine and how it affected a man who engaged in deep sin and thought he was predestined to be released.
https://archive.org/details/thoughtsuponafri00newt/page/n3/mode/2up